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Staro 12.01.2023., 13:21   #5791
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Radije bih sve big jezgre, u 3d načinu slaganja pa onda neće biti ni potrebe za malim jezgrama koje su tu samo kao polu rješenje dok ne smisle kako upogonit sve velike jezgre i uštedit na prostoru, a uz to će i developere manje bolit glava kad imaš konzistentne jezgre, i potencijalno manje problema za nas ako se nađe neki softver koji ne zna razlikovati jezgre.
Ja računam da je recimo i5 13600K zapravo 6-jezgreni procesor i da je dodatnih 8 "little" jezgri samo bonus unutar toga. Kad malo pogledaš rezultate, ispada da se sam 13600K ponaša kao 10-jezgreni procesor s 20 dretvi/threadova tako da zapravo to i nije loša solucija, pogotovo ako će se na taj način u budućnosti smanjiti i potrošnja i zagrijavanje.
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Staro 12.01.2023., 14:04   #5792
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To je isključivo marketinški pristup dizajnu proizvoda. Više jezgri se lakše može reklamirati, veći Cinebench score se lakše može reklamirati i eto, trpajte što više tih cinebench akceleratora, kaže marketing. TDP raste? Ako promijenimo definiciju TDP-a i sakrijemo pravu vrijednost, who cares?

Meteor Lake će imati samo 6 P jezgri, taman u vrijeme kad će igre valjda početi koristiti i više od toga. To će biti zanimljivo.
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Staro 12.01.2023., 14:23   #5793
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To je isključivo marketinški pristup dizajnu proizvoda. Više jezgri se lakše može reklamirati, veći Cinebench score se lakše može reklamirati i eto, trpajte što više tih cinebench akceleratora, kaže marketing. TDP raste? Ako promijenimo definiciju TDP-a i sakrijemo pravu vrijednost, who cares?

Meteor Lake će imati samo 6 P jezgri, taman u vrijeme kad će igre valjda početi koristiti i više od toga. To će biti zanimljivo.
Nije samo marketinški pristup već je tehnološki problem utrpati više jezgri u dosadašnji princip dizajniranja procesora, što zbog potrošnje, a što zbog zagrijavanja. Mislim da je ARM otišao u pravom smjeru što se tiče dizajna u pogledu performanse/potrošnja/zagrijavanje i da si je Intel zato dao truda s big.LITTLE dizajnom. Za budućnost ćemo vidjeti zapravo kakva će biti situacija, Intel ionako očajnički treba "redizajn" dizajna kao što je to napravljeno s Core Duo i Core 2 Duo procesorima.

Ovo za potrošnju i zagrijavanje što spominjem odvojeno, namjerno to radim jer je u potrošnji poseban problem što visoke vrijednosti struje teku kroz malu površinu i teško je to postići bez povišenja temperature, kakva god trenutna tehnologija izrade bila u primjeni, i po tipu poluvodiča i po veličini tehnološke izrade, 14 nm, 7nm ili manje.

Zadnje izmijenjeno od: Sinac. 12.01.2023. u 14:29.
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Staro 12.01.2023., 15:18   #5794
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Nije samo marketinški pristup već je tehnološki problem utrpati više jezgri u dosadašnji princip dizajniranja procesora, što zbog potrošnje, a što zbog zagrijavanja. Mislim da je ARM otišao u pravom smjeru što se tiče dizajna u pogledu performanse/potrošnja/zagrijavanje i da si je Intel zato dao truda s big.LITTLE dizajnom. Za budućnost ćemo vidjeti zapravo kakva će biti situacija, Intel ionako očajnički treba "redizajn" dizajna kao što je to napravljeno s Core Duo i Core 2 Duo procesorima.

Ovo za potrošnju i zagrijavanje što spominjem odvojeno, namjerno to radim jer je u potrošnji poseban problem što visoke vrijednosti struje teku kroz malu površinu i teško je to postići bez povišenja temperature, kakva god trenutna tehnologija izrade bila u primjeni, i po tipu poluvodiča i po veličini tehnološke izrade, 14 nm, 7nm ili manje.
Intelu da, AMD-u ne, AMD će i na mobilnim procesorima koristit punokrvnih 16 jezgri, zahvaljujući njihovom chiplet dizajnu. Dok Intel ne smisli nešto tako koristit će ovo polu rješenje zvano big/little koje je možda prihvatljivo u mobilnom dizajnu, no na desktop-u mi to ne treba. Također i što se tiče potrošnje tu je AMD efikasniji unatoč svim big jezgrama, jedva čekam vidjeti testove 16 core mobilnog procesora koji će to dodatno potvrditi.
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Staro 12.01.2023., 15:46   #5795
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To je istina, da je dizajn krenuo od optimizacije za mobilno tržište, a onda je bačeno na desktop reda radi, da se uštedi na troškovima, da se ne radi novi dizajn ispočetka. I nabio se broj E jezgri jer P troše previše, a ne smije se zaostati za AMD-om u broju jezgri, kakve god bile, iz marketinških razloga. Ne znam, nisam optimističan... Intel je izvukao čudo nakon nekoliko failanih generacija s Alderom, ali ne vidim da imaju ekvivalent X3D tehnologiji, a TDP više ne mogu pumpati. Gameri im se smiju zbog E jezgri tj. cinebench akceleratora koje ne služe ničem osim u profi radu, a nitko normalan ne renderira na njima jer je proc kao cjelina dvostruko manje efikasan od AMD-a.

Raptor refresh, ne znam što više mogu napraviti osim povećati TDP, Meteor će ići samo do i5 ako je suditi prema trenutno dostupnim glasinama, ne znam kako stoji Royal Cove ili kako već se zove ono iza. Cijene su već dumpinške, nemaju prostora za pogrešku...

Ili će napraviti što Exiled oduvijek zaziva, prebaciti se na TSMC za chiplete za P jezgre i osigurati barem da ne zaostaju u proizvodnom procesu.
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Staro 12.01.2023., 16:04   #5796
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Samo mi nije jasno to sa 6P jezgri u MTL, jel to potvrđeno ili samo glasine? Pa 8 jezgri je standard za gaming. Bilo kakvo prebacivanje sa P na E jezgre dodaje latenciju što se u igrama osjeti.
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Staro 12.01.2023., 16:17   #5797
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https://www.pcgamer.com/intel-meteor...ut-dont-panic/

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However, this is almost certainly wrong. To be clear, the idea that Meteor Lake CPUs will be limited to six performance cores is very likely correct. The information has now been confirmed by multiple sources and Intel itself showed off a die shot of Meteor Lake revealing a six-core P-core architecture.

But what won't happen is a Core i9 14900K CPU with six Performance-cores. Instead, Intel will restrict Meteor Lake to cheaper, more mainstream Core i5 and perhaps i7 models. Exactly how Intel finesses the product stack to allow for this remains to be seen. It's possible Intel will launch some tweaked high-end Raptor Lake refresh chips to keep high end products looking moderately fresh when Meteor Lake CPUs appear further down the range.

For 2024, of course, Intel has yet another new architecture known as Arrow Lake inked into its public roadmaps. All expectations are that Arrow Lake will offer the full compliment of eight high-clocked Performance-cores.
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Staro 12.01.2023., 16:25   #5798
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Ovo što će Intel (pokušati) napraviti s Meteor Lake je ono što je AMD napravio sa Zen 3 arhitekturom, nešto bolji IPC uz manju potrošnju na istom taktu u odnosu na stariju generaciju. A sad kakvo će stanje biti, to ćemo tek vidjeti.
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Staro 12.01.2023., 17:23   #5799
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Njihov chiplet model je tu inovacija. Koliko korisna, vidjet ćemo. Intel ide na full modularnu strukturu koja je super za dodavati sitnice poput akceleratora ili malih jezgri, a naročito ovo prvo je sadašnjost već u serverima. Velike jezgre vjerojatno ne mogu trpati beskonačno zbog potrošnje. Kao nešto futureproof zvuči sjajno, ali upitno je koliko prednosti ima u ovoj generaciji. Upitno je i da li će doći na vrijeme, to je kod Intela vječno enigma.
Najveći problem Intelu je što AMD ne mora ići na te kerefeke, pošto ima puno efikasniji dizajn. Lako za desktop, na serverima je to veliko ograničenje.
I tako vidimo kako se tehnologije za servere i mobilne uređaje isprepliću, desktop je tržište koje najviše oprašta i u koje se najmanje ulaže.
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Staro 12.01.2023., 18:08   #5800
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AMD ce ih pojesti sa Zen 5 ukoliko je to istina, samo 6 P jezgri ne bih uzeo ni da mi nude besplatno.
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Staro 12.01.2023., 18:17   #5801
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Po svemu sudeći Meteor Lake bude samo i isključivo mobilno izdanje, dok se desktop varijante otkazuju, a zamjena su Raptor Lake osvježeni modeli, dok ne stigne nešto (Arrow Lake) konkretno u 2024.
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Toward the end of 2023, Intel plans to release the 14th Gen Meteor Lake processors. The chipmaker claims its 4nm process is ready for ramp, and Meteor Lake is on track as planned. Meteor Lake will be the first consumer CPU to feature a chiplet design with disaggregated dies for compute, graphics, and I/O. Each of them will be fabbed on a different process node: Compute tile on the Intel 4 node, graphics die on TSMC N5, and SoC die on the TSMC N6 node. Meteor Lake is a mobile-centric platform that will reduce the P-core count to improve battery life and power efficiency. The core architecture will be upgraded to Redwood Cove (P-core) and Crestmont (E-core). MTL was supposed to be the first desktop family to adopt the LGA1851 socket with 6 P-cores and 16 E-cores. However, rumors have claimed that the desktop platform has been canceled for unforeseeable reasons.

Arrow Lake will succeed Meteor Lake in 2024. Being part of the 14th Gen family, it’ll be socket compatible with Meteor Lake, allowing OEMs to upgrade their notebook designs easily. Seeing how the MTL-S desktop chips are in limbo, it’ll be a much-anticipated release on the DIY end. Unlike its predecessor, it will be geared towards high-performance desktop users with 8P and 16E cores. Arrow Lake’s compute tile will be manufactured on the 20A (2nm) node with GAA (RibbonFET) transistors and PowerVia backside power delivery. It’ll feature an advanced chiplet architecture with Foveros 3D stacking, wider inter-die bandwidth, and a potent graphics die fabbed on the TSMC 3nm or 4nm process.

Lunar Lake will follow Arrow Lake in 2025. Fabbed on the cutting-edge 1.8A (1.8nm) process node, it will radically change Intel’s client CPU architecture. Built from the ground up for mobility, it’ll prioritize power efficiency over performance. There’s a very good chance that it is the product of the Royal Cove project designed by Jim Keller and his team. Lunar Lake will feature new CPU, GPU, and VPU architectures for lower power consumption and all-day battery life. It is the result of a close collaboration with Microsoft and will fully leverage the advanced capabilities of Windows 11. You can expect a slew of new ultra-thin notebooks and convertibles based on the Lunar Lake family.
Izvor: Hardware Times
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Zadnje izmijenjeno od: The Exiled. 14.01.2023. u 18:15.
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Staro 26.01.2023., 17:46   #5802
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Intel Core i9-13900KS Review: The World's First 6 GHz 320W CPU

Link: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/in...0ks-cpu-review
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Staro 26.01.2023., 19:00   #5803
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Staro 26.01.2023., 19:03   #5804
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I onda procitas clanak pa vidis da su te destruktivne akcije niska cijena i veliki kapacitet za proizvodnju.

Ne valja kad je skupo, a ne valja ni sad kad je dostupno i toboze agresivno jeftino
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Staro 26.01.2023., 19:24   #5805
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Intel nažalost ima i većih problema, a većina najava koje je novi CEO izbacil u eter ne ide po planu i programu.
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The chairman of Intel’s board of directors, Omar Ishrak, is stepping down just days before the chipmaker is due to report its Q4 earnings and after a series of high-profile cutbacks.
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A $700 million research and development facility in Hillsboro, Oregon, is the latest project on Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger's chopping block.
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Intel appears to be casting doubt on previous proposals to build a chip factory in Italy, as the company plays off European countries against each other
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Nearly two years after taking over as CEO, Pat Gelsinger's master plan to reinvent Intel is on uncertain footing as the chipmaker struggles financially and fights for government subsidies
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Still no date for breaking ground, as chip giant reportedly confirms it will build once 'funding' worked out
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  • AMD 4th Gen Epyc Genoa CPUs up to 20% Faster than Intel’s Sapphire Rapids-SP in AVX-512 Workloads

  • AMD will Capture More than 30% of the Server CPU Market in 2023 with 4th Gen Epyc Genoa

  • AMD’s 96 Core Epyc Genoa CPU is Over 70% Faster than Intel’s Xeon Sapphire Rapids Flagship in 2S Mode

  • Dual Intel Sapphire Rapids-SP CPU Combo (120 Cores) Loses to a Single AMD Epyc Genoa CPU with 96 Cores
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Zadnje izmijenjeno od: The Exiled. 26.01.2023. u 19:32.
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Staro 26.01.2023., 19:43   #5806
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Rekordne zarade su postale mršave. Pretprošli kvartal su završili u minusu a prošli samo milijarda dobiti, za njih je to jako mršavo. AMD je također u mršavim zaradama. Ali brijem da nema zima ni za jedne ni za druge, kao što Intel glavešina izjavio, čipovi su nova nafta i potražnja će biti sve veća.
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Staro 26.01.2023., 20:03   #5807
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Je, ali dodatni problem za Intel (uz nedostatak rekordnih zarada) su najavljeni otkazi, dodatna zatvaranja određenih divizija po uzoru na Optane i AXG uz konkurenciju koja ne stoji na mjestu i ne čeka da ih država sponzorira.
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Staro 26.01.2023., 20:07   #5808
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ARC grafiku kao fijasko ne treba posebno niti spominjati. I to je pomrsilo financijske planove makar same grafičke kartice na papiru i nisu tako loše, ali ostalo oko njih zahtjeva i strpljenja i natezanja:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGQPCsqDZRc
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Staro 26.01.2023., 21:38   #5809
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Samo da im ne propadne GPU divizija, onda će nestati i ono malo svjetla u tunelu, a Jensen Huang dat gas i rtx 5050 preimenovati u 5080.
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Staro 26.01.2023., 22:52   #5810
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Intel reports a broad miss on its Q4 2022 earnings along with horrendous guidance for Q1 2023
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Intel’s Q4 and full year 2022 earnings are out and it’s not looking great: a $0.7 billion loss and revenue down 32 percent, though its GPU business seems to have bottomed out. Intel warned things would be bad, and it’s forecasting 40 percent less revenue next quarter (YoY) too. Intel is facing a steep drop in consumer PC sales, as shoppers choose to hold on to the laptops and desktops they purchased at the peak of the pandemic. Intel's Client Computing Group was hammered in the quarter, with revenue declining 36% year-over-year from $10.3 billion to $6.6 billion. Intel's Datacenter and AI business also took a beating, with revenue declining 33% year-over-year from $6.4 billion to $4.3 billion.


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Staro 27.01.2023., 01:44   #5811
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Kakav je ovo "increased Intel 7 mix" pod operating income? U društvu je faktora koji donose gubitke pa me zbunjuje.
Dal se iz toga da očitat da taj Intel 7 proces proizvodi gubitke također?
Sorry zbog velike slike


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Staro 27.01.2023., 07:30   #5812
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A kaze picajzla da AMD samo lose stoji, da propadaju, guse se itd, picajzla na aparatima.
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Staro 27.01.2023., 07:53   #5813
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Kakav je ovo "increased Intel 7 mix" pod operating income? U društvu je faktora koji donose gubitke pa me zbunjuje.
Dal se iz toga da očitat da taj Intel 7 proces proizvodi gubitke također?
Sorry zbog velike slike
Increased Intel 7 mix je proizvodni proces u koji su utukli hrpu love.

https://www.extremetech.com/computin...ctor-dominance
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Staro 27.01.2023., 09:24   #5814
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Nije dugo trebalo da krenu nova rezanja.
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Intel's disastrous Q4 2022 earnings found the company losing $661 million and its margins crashing to the lowest point in decades, so it isn't surprising that the company announced new cost-cutting measures. That includes news that it would no longer invest in new products for its networking switch business, effectively sunsetting the unit much like it recently decided to end its Optane Memory business. Surprisingly, Intel also pulled the rug from under its respected RISC-V Pathfinder program without a formal announcement, raising questions about its commitment to its other broad investments in the RISC-V ecosystem.
Izvor: Tom's Hardware
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A kaze picajzla da AMD samo lose stoji, da propadaju, guse se itd, picajzla na aparatima.
Da, Intel uvijek i u bilo koje vrijeme drži minimalno 90% sveukupnog tržišta, jedino je zajeb da su u pet godina prošli kroz tri direktora i pri tome izgubili fini komad sveukupnog tržišta od šrot firme zvane AMD.
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"Intel still dominates the markets for PC and server processing chips, with a market share greater than 70%. But that is down from more than 90% in those markets in 2017."
Citiraj:
"AMD’s CPU market share grows to almost 30% as Intel falters, Ryzen chips record highest gain in over 3 Years."
Od toga da bez konkurencije više od deset godina stoje na mjestu s quad-core rješenjima, jer nitko ne treba više, došli su do toga da istovremeno najavljuju i otkazuju hrpu kojekakvih projekata i gube nekad zagarantirani tržišni udio. I opet je novi CEO naglasil da je sve to zapravo dio plana da se AMD ulovi u mrežu, a Intel onda momentalno izbacuje sve kaj cijelo ovo vrijeme drže u tajnosti, jer nije istina da njihovi proizvodi kasne više godina, već Intel to namjerno tak radi, da se korisnici lijepo iznenade.
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Intel’s datacenter business goes from bad to worse, with worst still to come
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We now have eight quarters of financial results as we look back on Intel’s reorganization under chief executive officer Pat Gelsinger, who took the helm of the chipmaker two years ago and who diced and sliced the company groups and the executives in charge of them in June 2021. Many things are obvious in hindsight. The first is that the creation of the Data Center and AI group, which correctly absorbed the Programmable Systems Group FPGA business that came to Intel from the $16.7 billion acquisition of Altera in June 2015, was designed to boost profits as much as possible and to get some money-losing adjacencies, such as its network switching business, out of the DCAI profit and loss ledgers.The second thing is that the AXG spinout of discrete graphics for visualization and compute was just a way to keep the losses that Intel’s GPU efforts would incur out of its DCAI group and as well as its Client Computing group.

The reorganization of the DCAI and NEX units was also designed to make both look stronger, and NEX had pretty good revenues thanks to the Xeon and Xeon D sales in datacenter and out at the edge (particularly in cell towers). But really, NEX is mostly part of a “datacenter” business, if you want to think of the edge as an extension of the datacenter. So even this split between DCAI and NEX is somewhat arbitrary. Now, the Flex Series GPU accelerators and the Max Series CPUs and GPUs that were part of AXG are going to be rolled into DCAI (where they always belonged), and Gelsinger was clear that these products would continue out into the future and were not part of its massive cuts.

Intel swung from an operating income of $4.99 billion in the year ago period to a $1.13 billion operating loss in Q4 2022. The old Data Center Group (created and ran by Gelsinger so many years ago) was either losing money or close to it (at an operating level) in 2021, and even after the new way of doing the books that got AXG costs away from DCAI and NEX, the operating profits have quickly collapsed down to miniscule.
Izvor: The Next Platform
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Zadnje izmijenjeno od: The Exiled. 28.01.2023. u 14:54.
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Staro 11.02.2023., 15:53   #5815
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Citiraj:
"Linus Sebastian confirmed that the highly popular Intel Extreme Upgrade series have ended. Intel will no longer collaborate with LTT (Linus Tech Tips) for this type of content. The owner confirmed that AMD will take over the format by introducing its own “Ultimate Tech Upgrade” series which is to kick off soon." The Intel Extreme Upgrade had a simple format of giving each LTT employee a budget of 5K USD for a new PC. Eventually, this budget included other devices and products that were loosely attached to the PC gaming, but it gave each individual a chance to express and introduce themselves to the growing LTT audience.
I dalje sve po planu i programu u Intelu.
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Staro 22.02.2023., 15:38   #5816
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Intel HEDT is BACK! Insane Overclockable 56 Core Sapphire Rapids CPU
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"Intel has reportedly deferred its orders for 3 nm wafers with TSMC. Built on the TSMC N3 node, the wafers were supposed to power the Graphics tiles (containing the iGPU), of the upcoming "Arrow Lake" processors, which were originally on course for a 2024 release. Processor that was originally intended to serve as a mainstream desktop CPU based on Meteor Lake, known as "MTL-S", was also canceled. Intel will ship some Meteor Lake parts as desktop CPUs alongside a refresh of its extant Raptor Lake processors rather than being cancelled on the desktop altogether. Intel to cut dividend to conserve cash."
Sapphire Rapids 56-core CPU 4.2GHz all-core uz 360W idle potrošnju i kakvih 600W, 800W i 1kW u load režimu, dok su Geekbench 5 performanse bolje od dvije godine starih Zen 3 Threadrippera.

Švabo je kod sebe imal 400W do 500W potrošnje u Cinebench R23 testu, tak da je u njegovom slučaju potrošnja ipak bolja.
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Intel Xeon W-3400 Content Creation Preview
Citiraj:
In general, heavily-threaded workloads like CPU rendering is looking good, with Intel being largely on par with AMD’s Threadripper PRO line. We are sure Intel would like to take a firm lead for these tasks, however, so we expect at least some optimizations to come even here. Lightly threaded tasks are the biggest problem area for Intel at the moment, although it is interesting to see the duality between straight-forward workloads like the Cinebench single threaded benchmark, and more complex ones like Photoshop. The Xeon W-3400 did amazing in Cinebench with a 40% gen-over-gen performance gain, putting them on top of AMD by about 15%. On the other hand, Photoshop was only barely faster than the previous generation, and well behind AMD. This begs the question of whether it is Intel who needs to be doing optimizations for these applications, or if it is more on Adobe to update their application code.
Izvor: Puget Systems
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Zadnje izmijenjeno od: The Exiled. 22.02.2023. u 16:19.
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Staro 25.02.2023., 17:11   #5817
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Baš sam gledao video, htio sam samo Cinebench pogledat. I stvarno je CPU brutalan, ali isto tako i potrošnja. Ovo što piše za Photoshop, to je očito ograničenje Photoshopovog programskog koda za korištenje multithreada. Makar, pitanje je kada će to Adobe popraviti kad ima pune ruke posla s Apple Macom i M1 i M2 procesorima.
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Staro 07.03.2023., 19:03   #5818
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Nakon friško odgođenih i otkazanih, prethodno najavljenih i praktički zagarantiranih HPC GPU modela, današnja vijest je opet prikladno pozitivne tematike, ali izgleda da ni strani mediji više ne vjeruju u Intelove najave.
Citiraj:
Intel finalizes design for Intel 20A and Intel 18A process nodes
Citiraj:
Intel executives love to tell a good story about the company's ability to innovate and do it fast enough to catch the competition, but it's difficult to take them seriously when the actual products are always on the horizon. Still, the chip giant says it's making important progress on advanced process technologies that will move out of the lab in 2024 at the earliest. A new story is making the rounds, citing Wang Rui, chair Intel China, in the media in both China and Taiwan, claiming that Intel is working on test chips for as many as 43 potential customers for Intel Foundry Services (IFS). At least seven of those potential customers are said to be from the top 10 foundry clients globally. This sounds a bit too good to be true, considering that IFS has as yet to prove that they can deliver on their promises.

Furthermore, Wang Rui is meant to have gone on record, saying that IFS has taped out products on both its 20A and 18A nodes. Exactly what these products are, wasn't divulged, but as the 18A node isn't expected to go into mass production until the second half of 2024, this sounds a little bit too good to be true. What makes this even less believable is that the Intel 4 node is only set to go into mass production in the second half this year and before Intel moves to its Ĺngström nodes, the company still has to deliver on its Intel 3 node. The Intel China chair is also reportedly confident that Intel will be returning to a leading foundry position by 2025.
Izvor: TechSpot i TechPowerUp
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Staro 17.03.2023., 12:00   #5819
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Intelov plan i program dodatno potvrđen detaljnim PowerPoint prezentacijama.
Citiraj:
Intel’s 2024 Arrow Lake-S desktop CPUs to feature up to 24 cores and support DDR5-6400 memory
Citiraj:
Meteor Lake-S should now really be completely discontinued. Only the notebook versions are being further developed and tested. Arrow Lake-S is to take its place and be combined with the chipsets of the 800 series. Both Meteor Lake-S and Arrow Lake-S were already intended for the LGA-1851 socket. The product which was expected between late 2023 and early 2024 is now said to be replaced by Arrow Lake-S. Both architectures were previously mentioned to use LGA-1851 socket and that has not changed. What is said, however is that a 6P+16E configuration of Meteor Lake-S might indeed be canceled. The company is allegedly planning Arrow Lake-S with 8P+16E config for the new series instead, which is to launch alongside Intel’s new 800-series chipsets.
Izvor: Interneti
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Staro 22.03.2023., 21:27   #5820
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prodajem starije komponente.
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