Problemi s Intelovim 13/14gen procesorima (oksidacija, degradacija, nestabilnost...) - Stranica 5

Dr. Strange · 26.09.2024., 15:06

Neki Intelovi evangelisti bi rekli da je to naša krivica jer nismo odmah otišli u BIOS i mijenjali voltaže, jer eto, to moramo raditi s proizvodima out of the box, tvorničke postavke su vrlo nesigurne.

The Exiled · 26.09.2024., 16:01

To, a i mogli bi se nadovezati da veći dio krivnje ipak spada na AMD, jer do 2017. je sve bilo OK. Iz godine u godine lijepo 350$ quad-core_high-end_gaming_crown CPU i nitko se nije žalil.
I onda odjednom Intel mora nešto kemijati po inače provjerenom receptu samo da dodaju za gaming nebitne jezgre i eto problema di ga ne treba.

The Exiled · 03.10.2024., 20:06

Citiraj:

Intel doesn't have a tool to detect if a chip is affected by crashing errors yet

Citiraj:

Intel says it hasn’t developed a reliable tool yet to detect if a Raptor Lake or Raptor Lake Refresh processor has been affected by the instability issue that can permanently damage a chip. Nevertheless, the company told Tom’s Hardware that it “continues to investigate the possibility of a detection tool” and “will issue an update if one becomes available.” The company also clarified its stance on power limits with the new microcode that can mitigate the crashing errors with chips that haven't experienced instability yet. Several 13th- and 14th-gen Intel Core chips have had instability issues that led to system crashes, but it took a few months for the company to find the root cause. The company finally released its findings in late September, plus a microcode update that is thought to fully address the issue once and for all—at least for processors that a degradation of the clock tree circuit hasn't yet impacted.

Unfortunately, any damage done to your processor cannot be reversed by the microcode update. So, even if you install it as soon as it comes out for your motherboard, you might still experience some instability. Thankfully, Intel released an extra two-year warranty on top of the existing three years for all affected processors from the Intel Core i5, i7, and i9 families, giving them five years of coverage. So, even if you have a problem a couple of years from now, you could still RMA the affected chip and get a new one without the issue (or maybe even a free upgrade). However, it’s still inconvenient to find out that your Intel Core processor is dead or dying as it’s happening. After all, getting a replacement chip via the RMA process could take a few days, so you’ll be without your computer within that time unless you have a backup device. That’s why a tool that would detect if your CPU has suffered degradation and is about to fail would be nice.

Aside from the microcode code updates, the chipmaking giant has advised everyone to stick to the Intel Default Settings as part of the mitigation against the Vmin shift causing the instability issues. However, there are a few caveats. “The microcode update 0x12B (which includes previous microcode updates 0x125 and 0x129), in addition to Intel Default settings, is the full mitigation for the Intel 13th and 14th Generation Desktop Processor Vmin Shift Instability issue,” Intel said. However, Intel says that even though using Intel’s default power profile is still recommended even after applying patches, users are free to increase the PL1 and PL2 power limits beyond the 'recommended values' and still remain in warranty (you can raise them to 4096W). However, users should still follow the safety settings, such as the IccMax and other settings listed at the top of this table, to remain within warranty (table also here).

As such, Intel says that its warranty will still cover processors that use higher power delivery profiles that remain within the IccMax threshold of the particular processor. So, users can still adjust the PL1/PL2 settings of their Intel Core CPUs without losing warranty coverage. However, the company also says, “Users who desire to overclock or utilize higher power delivery settings than recommended can still do so at their own risk as overclocking may void warranty or affect system health.”

Izvor: Tom's Hardware

Intel has a problem part 2: Post Mortem: Revived. But the Aftermath?

EDIT:

Citiraj:

Intel says its Raptor Lake crashing chip nightmare is over: The too-high voltage issue was the root cause, Intel now confirms

Citiraj:

Intel may have one less worry on its very full plate: it believes it has now fully addressed its desktop CPU instability woes with 13th and 14th Gen “Raptor Lake” chips. While the company says there’s still no fix for processors that are already damaged, it confirms to me that the “Vmin Shift Instability” is the root cause of the unusual instability and crashes that these desktop CPUs have been demonstrating for many months. And, Intel says, the four sets of mitigations it’s now shipped are the fix for the problem. “Yes, we’re confirming this is the cause and that it is fixed,” Intel spokesperson Thomas Hannaford tells The Verge.

That’s good! It also wasn’t clear until now. As of August 30th, Intel was still telling us that “Vmin Shift Instability” was not necessarily the root cause or the only cause of the unusual crashes we’ve seen with 13th and 14th Gen chips. So last Wednesday, when Intel announced it had diagnosed the root cause of Vmin Shift Instability, it was not clear whether it had diagnosed why these chips were failing, period, or just one potential cause. I spent a week going back and forth with Intel about this, and the company initially provided answers that didn’t quite hit the mark — but it’s now willing to say that Vmin Shift Stability is the root cause.

The short version is that Intel’s chips and their paired motherboards were asking for too much voltage, and that voltage was damaging parts of these chips, prematurely aging them. Intel is still not publicly providing the batch numbers or serial number ranges of Raptor Lake chips that suffered from oxidization during manufacturing — it claims it fixed that issue long ago — and it does not have an update on a tool to let you easily test your chip to see if it’s aged prematurely. Intel is also still not providing an estimate of how many chips are likely to be irreversibly impacted, or how lenient it will be with warranty support.

Izvor: The Verge

The Exiled · 14.07.2025., 22:22

Citiraj:

Intel Raptor Lake CPUs are crashing more frequently due to summer heatwaves, Firefox dev says

Citiraj:

Instability issues with Intel's Raptor Lake CPUs continue to affect users worldwide. Even web browsers are reportedly "feeling the heat," with an uptick in crash reports, particularly in regions experiencing intense summer temperatures. Mozilla Firefox has now joined the growing list of software affected by the Raptor Lake instability issues that Intel first acknowledged in 2024. According to Mozilla Staff Platform Engineer Gabriele Svelto, the open-source browser is experiencing a noticeable increase in crashes – particularly in regions currently facing high summer temperatures.

Svelto said that users in the Northern Hemisphere are being hit the hardest, and that he could tell which European countries were experiencing heat waves just by looking at Firefox crash reports. Most of these logs came from systems powered by Intel's Raptor Lake CPUs. Raptor Lake processors are known to suffer from timing and voltage irregularities that worsen as temperatures rise. The issue, commonly referred to as Vmin Shift, can potentially cause permanent CPU damage by supplying unsafe voltage levels. Intel has attempted to mitigate the problem with several firmware and microcode updates, the most recent of which was released just a few weeks ago.

The situation has became so problematic that Mozilla was recently forced to disable a bot designed to automatically send crash reports back to the foundation's servers. The bot was overwhelmingly detecting crash instances on systems running Intel's Raptor Lake CPUs, prompting developers to filter out reports from those specific models. Svelto confirmed that the issue is 100 percent an Intel problem, adding that a significant portion of the crashes were coming from machines powered by the popular Core i7-14700K processor. During the discussion, he even reached out to one seemingly unaffected user with a stable Raptor Lake system, asking them to test the latest Firefox Nightly build.

The latest wave of Firefox crashes adds to the growing chorus of concern surrounding Intel's 13th- and 14th-generation CPUs. With continued instability, some users are now being advised to steer clear of Raptor Lake chips until Intel resolves the issue. In the meantime, AMD appears to be benefiting from the fallout, gaining ground with its highly stable Ryzen processors.

Izvor: TechSpot

Dule · 19.07.2025., 14:30

"Mobile processors are not affected" - my ass. Imao sam dva 14900HX koja su pokazivala simptome degradacije, i koliko vidim nisam jedini:

https://rog-forum.asus.com/t5/gaming...s/td-p/1099947

The Exiled · 19.07.2025., 14:56

Da, nažalost takvi high-end mobilni modeli koriste iste jezgre kao i desktop verzije, tak da više ništa nije čudno, a s vremenom bude toga sve više.

Intel je ionak cijelu stvar skrival i u više navrata prebacival na proizvođače i krajnje korisnike, a obzirom na aktualnu situaciju kompletne firme, imaju i većih problema.

joolka · 29.07.2025., 18:03

Citiraj:

Autor Dule

"Mobile processors are not affected" - my ass. Imao sam dva 14900HX koja su pokazivala simptome degradacije, i koliko vidim nisam jedini:

https://rog-forum.asus.com/t5/gaming...s/td-p/1099947

kakvi su simptomi,upravo nabavio lap sa i7 14700hx procom

Dule · 29.07.2025., 22:58

Citiraj:

Autor joolka

kakvi su simptomi,upravo nabavio lap sa i7 14700hx procom

Najlakše reproducirati sa unzipanjem raznih arhiva, npr. extract Nvidia drivera redovno baci CRC error:

https://us.download.nvidia.com/Windo...l-dch-whql.exe

ili famozni 0x800706BE kod Windows Update, kao ovdje: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/an...ror-0x800706be

ili random STATUS_ACCESS_VIOLATION u Chromeu.

A i generalna rušenja/BSOD/nestabilnost općenito...

Roberto · 27.09.2025., 13:04

Citiraj:

Autor Dule

Najlakše reproducirati sa unzipanjem raznih arhiva, npr. extract Nvidia drivera redovno baci CRC error:

https://us.download.nvidia.com/Windo...l-dch-whql.exe

ili famozni 0x800706BE kod Windows Update, kao ovdje: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/an...ror-0x800706be

ili random STATUS_ACCESS_VIOLATION u Chromeu.

A i generalna rušenja/BSOD/nestabilnost općenito...

Došo mi na test jedan problematičan intel, pa dođoh vidjet ovdje koji je najbrži način za vidjet jel u problemu ili ne.

Znači raspakiravanje arhiva, generalni bsod pri opterećenju (s čim opteretit? Occt?)
Još nešto?

Plan je istestirat, pa ako radi sranja updateat bios na mbo pa onda opet testirat.

The Exiled · 27.09.2025., 13:16

Općenito bilo kakvo opterećenje diljem jezgri je dosta da se skrši, bilo određena aplikacija, igra, OS, kaj god. Jedna od zadnjih komedija je out-of-memory greška za vrijeme otvorenih web-browser tabova, tak da tu više nema nikakvog pravila. Zahvaćeni procesori u pozadini polako propadaju, dok se korisnici muče s pokušajem objašnjenja koji vrag se događa, a BIOS update samo donekle odgađa neizbježno, jer Intel je opral ruke od svega.

Roberto · 27.09.2025., 14:06

Ima li šanse za reklamaciju tog sranja?

The Exiled · 27.09.2025., 14:11

Možeš probati, čisto, ako dućan u kojem je kupljen izađe u susret, jer Intel uredno pravi budale od ljudi, pa odbacuju direktne reklamacije kak i kad im paše.

Exy · 27.09.2025., 22:37

Ako je riječ o laptopu nije mi jasno kako Intel može išta reć, reklamira se cijeli laptop koji baca bsode gdje god stigne, nek to ovlašteni servis popravi i riješi sa proizvođačem, ASUS-om, Lenovom, HP-om, kime god. Što mene u tom slučaju briga što Intel priznaje ili ne. Ako je riječ o samom CPU onda razumijem da može biti izmotavanja, iako ne razumijem na temelju čego Intel odbija reklamacije, možda korisnik sam izaziva BSOD-eve, samo kako, nepravilnom instalacijom CPU-a

The Exiled · 27.09.2025., 22:48

Zato sam spomenul, ako je dućan voljan izaći u susret, jer neovisno o mobilnom ili desktop izdanju, netko bude se moral jebati s Intel RMA procedurom u kojoj te nakon AI chat veselja, između ostalog tjeraju da se odvrti Processor Diagnostic Tool uz popratno slikanje procesora, tak da lakše mogu odmahnuti rukom kak to nije njihov problem, jer batch number ne odgovora izmišljenom razlogu odbijanja reklamacije. Ionak su sve probleme uredno skrivali dok su aktivno prodavali sfušane procesore, pa kad je voda došla do grla, brže-bolje okrivili proizvođače matičnih ploča i krajnje korisnike. Kak god se okrene, Intelovom pederluku i ciganluku (1 - 2) nema kraja i sva sreća da ih je država spasila od propasti, tak da i dalje možemo imati konkurenciju koja se međusobno tjera naprijed.

Roberto · 29.09.2025., 10:09

Nakon dva dana testiranja nisam ni mrvu pametniji

OCCT testiranja prolazi bez beda, iako se zagrije jebački.
Pri tom kopiranje i ekstrakcija radi, samo radi vrlo sporo.
I igrat ponešto sam uspio.

Jedino što sam ulovio je chrome tab lock up. Pri više otvorenih tabova chrome se random smrzne, tabovi se smrznu, otvoreni tab ne možeš clickat i skrolat do cca 20-30 sekundi i onda se odlocka.

Ponovio isto nakon što sam flashao bios matične na najnoviji.

Pa probao isto nakon što sam namjestio bios opcije po preporukama s nekoliko foruma/reddita.

Isti rezultat bez obzira na sve. Čini se da je CPU "dobio po glavi" i ima problema, ali vjerojatno nedovoljno da bi to bilo priznato kao reklamacija. Eventualno bi još mogao probat posudit neku drugu ploču pa probat još jednom.

Na kraju, kao što kažeš, sve ovisi o tome hoće li se dućan koji je prodao proc htjeti bosti s Intelom oko toga.

@Exy, malo proguglaj po forumima i redditu, kako intel jebe ljude oko tih procesora. Od toga da uopće ignorira problem i svaljuje ga na probleme s matičnim pločama, do toga da optužuje ljude da su kupili remarked procesor i da će ga, ukoliko ga pošalju na reklamaciju, zaplijenit i ne vratit

The Exiled · 29.09.2025., 10:20

Možeš još i reda-radi odvrtjeti Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool, ali izgleda da taj procesor polako, ali sigurno ide u vječna lovišta.

the-rider · 29.09.2025., 19:06

a dignuti napon i zaprziti ga do kraja i onda ga slati na rma?

26.09.2024., 16:01	#122
The Exiled McG Moj komp Datum registracije: Feb 2014 Lokacija: Varaždin Postovi: 8,375	To, a i mogli bi se nadovezati da veći dio krivnje ipak spada na AMD, jer do 2017. je sve bilo OK. Iz godine u godine lijepo 350$ quad-core_high-end_gaming_crown CPU i nitko se nije žalil. I onda odjednom Intel mora nešto kemijati po inače provjerenom receptu samo da dodaju za gaming nebitne jezgre i eto problema di ga ne treba. __________________ AMD Ryzen 9 9950X \| Noctua NH-U12A chromax.black \| MSI MAG B650 Tomahawk Wi-Fi \| 128GB Kingston FURY Beast DDR5-5200 \| 256GB AData SX8200 Pro NVMe \| 2x4TB WD Red Plus \| Fractal Define 7 Compact \| Seasonic GX-750 AMD Ryzen 5 7600 \| Noctua NH-U12A chromax.black \| MSI MAG B650 Tomahawk Wi-Fi \| 128GB Kingston FURY Beast DDR5-5200 \| 256GB AData SX8200 Pro NVMe \| 2x12TB WD Red Plus \| Fractal Define 7 Compact \| eVGA 650 B5

19.07.2025., 14:56	#126
The Exiled McG Moj komp Datum registracije: Feb 2014 Lokacija: Varaždin Postovi: 8,375	Da, nažalost takvi high-end mobilni modeli koriste iste jezgre kao i desktop verzije, tak da više ništa nije čudno, a s vremenom bude toga sve više. Intel je ionak cijelu stvar skrival i u više navrata prebacival na proizvođače i krajnje korisnike, a obzirom na aktualnu situaciju kompletne firme, imaju i većih problema. __________________ AMD Ryzen 9 9950X \| Noctua NH-U12A chromax.black \| MSI MAG B650 Tomahawk Wi-Fi \| 128GB Kingston FURY Beast DDR5-5200 \| 256GB AData SX8200 Pro NVMe \| 2x4TB WD Red Plus \| Fractal Define 7 Compact \| Seasonic GX-750 AMD Ryzen 5 7600 \| Noctua NH-U12A chromax.black \| MSI MAG B650 Tomahawk Wi-Fi \| 128GB Kingston FURY Beast DDR5-5200 \| 256GB AData SX8200 Pro NVMe \| 2x12TB WD Red Plus \| Fractal Define 7 Compact \| eVGA 650 B5

27.09.2025., 13:16	#130
The Exiled McG Moj komp Datum registracije: Feb 2014 Lokacija: Varaždin Postovi: 8,375	Općenito bilo kakvo opterećenje diljem jezgri je dosta da se skrši, bilo određena aplikacija, igra, OS, kaj god. Jedna od zadnjih komedija je out-of-memory greška za vrijeme otvorenih web-browser tabova, tak da tu više nema nikakvog pravila. Zahvaćeni procesori u pozadini polako propadaju, dok se korisnici muče s pokušajem objašnjenja koji vrag se događa, a BIOS update samo donekle odgađa neizbježno, jer Intel je opral ruke od svega. __________________ AMD Ryzen 9 9950X \| Noctua NH-U12A chromax.black \| MSI MAG B650 Tomahawk Wi-Fi \| 128GB Kingston FURY Beast DDR5-5200 \| 256GB AData SX8200 Pro NVMe \| 2x4TB WD Red Plus \| Fractal Define 7 Compact \| Seasonic GX-750 AMD Ryzen 5 7600 \| Noctua NH-U12A chromax.black \| MSI MAG B650 Tomahawk Wi-Fi \| 128GB Kingston FURY Beast DDR5-5200 \| 256GB AData SX8200 Pro NVMe \| 2x12TB WD Red Plus \| Fractal Define 7 Compact \| eVGA 650 B5

27.09.2025., 14:06	#131
Roberto Premium Moj komp Datum registracije: Feb 2006 Lokacija: Zagreb Postovi: 2,648	Ima li šanse za reklamaciju tog sranja? __________________ i9-10850K / asrock z490 taichi / 64gb DDR4/ 1gb ssd / 4 tb wd hdd / Gigabyte 6600xt /

27.09.2025., 14:11	#132
The Exiled McG Moj komp Datum registracije: Feb 2014 Lokacija: Varaždin Postovi: 8,375	Možeš probati, čisto, ako dućan u kojem je kupljen izađe u susret, jer Intel uredno pravi budale od ljudi, pa odbacuju direktne reklamacije kak i kad im paše. __________________ AMD Ryzen 9 9950X \| Noctua NH-U12A chromax.black \| MSI MAG B650 Tomahawk Wi-Fi \| 128GB Kingston FURY Beast DDR5-5200 \| 256GB AData SX8200 Pro NVMe \| 2x4TB WD Red Plus \| Fractal Define 7 Compact \| Seasonic GX-750 AMD Ryzen 5 7600 \| Noctua NH-U12A chromax.black \| MSI MAG B650 Tomahawk Wi-Fi \| 128GB Kingston FURY Beast DDR5-5200 \| 256GB AData SX8200 Pro NVMe \| 2x12TB WD Red Plus \| Fractal Define 7 Compact \| eVGA 650 B5

26.09.2024., 15:06	#121
Dr. Strange Registered User Datum registracije: Aug 2020 Lokacija: Hrvatska Postovi: 898	Neki Intelovi evangelisti bi rekli da je to naša krivica jer nismo odmah otišli u BIOS i mijenjali voltaže, jer eto, to moramo raditi s proizvodima out of the box, tvorničke postavke su vrlo nesigurne.

19.07.2025., 14:30	#125
Dule Premium Moj komp Datum registracije: Aug 2006 Lokacija: Zagreb Postovi: 667	"Mobile processors are not affected" - my ass. Imao sam dva 14900HX koja su pokazivala simptome degradacije, i koliko vidim nisam jedini: https://rog-forum.asus.com/t5/gaming...s/td-p/1099947

27.09.2025., 22:37	#133
Exy Premium Moj komp Datum registracije: Sep 2006 Lokacija: Zagreb, Črnomerec Postovi: 2,580	Ako je riječ o laptopu nije mi jasno kako Intel može išta reć, reklamira se cijeli laptop koji baca bsode gdje god stigne, nek to ovlašteni servis popravi i riješi sa proizvođačem, ASUS-om, Lenovom, HP-om, kime god. Što mene u tom slučaju briga što Intel priznaje ili ne. Ako je riječ o samom CPU onda razumijem da može biti izmotavanja, iako ne razumijem na temelju čego Intel odbija reklamacije, možda korisnik sam izaziva BSOD-eve, samo kako, nepravilnom instalacijom CPU-a

27.09.2025., 22:48	#134
The Exiled McG Moj komp Datum registracije: Feb 2014 Lokacija: Varaždin Postovi: 8,375	Zato sam spomenul, ako je dućan voljan izaći u susret, jer neovisno o mobilnom ili desktop izdanju, netko bude se moral jebati s Intel RMA procedurom u kojoj te nakon AI chat veselja, između ostalog tjeraju da se odvrti Processor Diagnostic Tool uz popratno slikanje procesora, tak da lakše mogu odmahnuti rukom kak to nije njihov problem, jer batch number ne odgovora izmišljenom razlogu odbijanja reklamacije. Ionak su sve probleme uredno skrivali dok su aktivno prodavali sfušane procesore, pa kad je voda došla do grla, brže-bolje okrivili proizvođače matičnih ploča i krajnje korisnike. Kak god se okrene, Intelovom pederluku i ciganluku (1 - 2) nema kraja i sva sreća da ih je država spasila od propasti, tak da i dalje možemo imati konkurenciju koja se međusobno tjera naprijed. __________________ AMD Ryzen 9 9950X \| Noctua NH-U12A chromax.black \| MSI MAG B650 Tomahawk Wi-Fi \| 128GB Kingston FURY Beast DDR5-5200 \| 256GB AData SX8200 Pro NVMe \| 2x4TB WD Red Plus \| Fractal Define 7 Compact \| Seasonic GX-750 AMD Ryzen 5 7600 \| Noctua NH-U12A chromax.black \| MSI MAG B650 Tomahawk Wi-Fi \| 128GB Kingston FURY Beast DDR5-5200 \| 256GB AData SX8200 Pro NVMe \| 2x12TB WD Red Plus \| Fractal Define 7 Compact \| eVGA 650 B5

29.09.2025., 10:09	#135
Roberto Premium Moj komp Datum registracije: Feb 2006 Lokacija: Zagreb Postovi: 2,648	Nakon dva dana testiranja nisam ni mrvu pametniji OCCT testiranja prolazi bez beda, iako se zagrije jebački. Pri tom kopiranje i ekstrakcija radi, samo radi vrlo sporo. I igrat ponešto sam uspio. Jedino što sam ulovio je chrome tab lock up. Pri više otvorenih tabova chrome se random smrzne, tabovi se smrznu, otvoreni tab ne možeš clickat i skrolat do cca 20-30 sekundi i onda se odlocka. Ponovio isto nakon što sam flashao bios matične na najnoviji. Pa probao isto nakon što sam namjestio bios opcije po preporukama s nekoliko foruma/reddita. Isti rezultat bez obzira na sve. Čini se da je CPU "dobio po glavi" i ima problema, ali vjerojatno nedovoljno da bi to bilo priznato kao reklamacija. Eventualno bi još mogao probat posudit neku drugu ploču pa probat još jednom. Na kraju, kao što kažeš, sve ovisi o tome hoće li se dućan koji je prodao proc htjeti bosti s Intelom oko toga. @Exy, malo proguglaj po forumima i redditu, kako intel jebe ljude oko tih procesora. Od toga da uopće ignorira problem i svaljuje ga na probleme s matičnim pločama, do toga da optužuje ljude da su kupili remarked procesor i da će ga, ukoliko ga pošalju na reklamaciju, zaplijenit i ne vratit __________________ i9-10850K / asrock z490 taichi / 64gb DDR4/ 1gb ssd / 4 tb wd hdd / Gigabyte 6600xt /

29.09.2025., 10:20	#136
The Exiled McG Moj komp Datum registracije: Feb 2014 Lokacija: Varaždin Postovi: 8,375	Možeš još i reda-radi odvrtjeti Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool, ali izgleda da taj procesor polako, ali sigurno ide u vječna lovišta. __________________ AMD Ryzen 9 9950X \| Noctua NH-U12A chromax.black \| MSI MAG B650 Tomahawk Wi-Fi \| 128GB Kingston FURY Beast DDR5-5200 \| 256GB AData SX8200 Pro NVMe \| 2x4TB WD Red Plus \| Fractal Define 7 Compact \| Seasonic GX-750 AMD Ryzen 5 7600 \| Noctua NH-U12A chromax.black \| MSI MAG B650 Tomahawk Wi-Fi \| 128GB Kingston FURY Beast DDR5-5200 \| 256GB AData SX8200 Pro NVMe \| 2x12TB WD Red Plus \| Fractal Define 7 Compact \| eVGA 650 B5

29.09.2025., 19:06	#137
the-rider ha? Moj komp Datum registracije: Dec 2007 Lokacija: Poreč Postovi: 543	a dignuti napon i zaprziti ga do kraja i onda ga slati na rma?

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