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-   -   Rasprava i komentari o "Spectre" i "Meltdown" pošastima (https://forum.pcekspert.com/showthread.php?t=290321)

The Exiled 23.05.2019. 21:31

Windows 10 Security Patch Slowed Intel Core i9 9900K in Pix4D, Metashape & RealityCapture
Citiraj:

Single patch, to address a couple of CPU vulnerabilities, caused Intel's Core i9 9900K processor to take 2 to 11% longer to process image sets in these photogrammetry applications. This is not the first update that has addressed such weaknesses in modern CPUs, so I wouldn't be surprised if the overall impact from those cumulative patches is even bigger. Some applications might be affected even more heavily, while others could see little or no difference - and of course, different CPUs may be affected more or less with each discovered vulnerability and subsequent patch. I look forward to seeing if this performance drop on the 9900K (and related models) impacts what CPUs are the best for photogrammetry moving forward, and we will have articles covering that topic in the coming days.
Spectre/Meltdown/L1TF/MDS Mitigation costs on an Intel Dual Core + HT Laptop
Citiraj:

Here are some benchmarks of a Lenovo ThinkPad with Core i7 Broadwell CPU looking at those mitigation costs, when using a Core i7 5600U with two physical cores plus Hyper Threading.
The default/out-of-the-box mitigations dropped the performance by 18% or 25% when disabling Hyper Threading.
ZombieLoad Mitigation Costs For Intel Haswell Xeon, Plus Overall Mitigation Impact
Citiraj:

When looking at the current costs of all mitigations to date combined, that's a 13% hit using the same set of benchmarks carried out for the recent Xeon/EPYC comparison a few days back. If also disabling Hyper Threading, it equates to about a 19% hit.
Izvor: Puget Systems i Phoronix

Mladenxy 25.05.2019. 17:05

Ako bude ovako biti će totalna katastrofa za i7 4/8 procesore a 2/4 procesori će postati totalno neupotrebljivi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9t7u5pM1cE

Za te korisnike jedino rješenje je ne nadograđivati BIOS ali opet je upitno kao će razviti situacija nakon krpanja windowsa.

The Exiled 25.05.2019. 18:50

Bojim se da bi u par godina ista stvar mogla dočekati trenutno aktualne Intelove 6C/12T i 8C/16T modele, jer primjera radi - Core i7-7700K je daleko od lošeg procesora. Nažalost, taman kad je lansiran su izašli i novi Ryzen modeli, a sve ostalo u pogledu ovih sigurnosnih propusta je samo dodatno zapečatilo sudbinu nekadašnjih high-end 4C/8T procesora. Neovisno o AMD-u i Ryzenima, Intel bi ovo kad-tad dočekalo, možda bi zabava potrajala još koju godinu, ali sustiglo bi ih svakak.

Mladenxy 25.05.2019. 19:28

Bude li stvarno ovako po 30% pada performansi nakon novih biosa ili nadograđenih windowsa tužbe bi morale pljuštati barem u USA. Nisu ni nvidiji gledali kroz prste sa GTX 970 i lažno predstavljenih kartica sa vramom. Vraćali su kupcima dio novaca.

Kaj se tiče i7 7700K deleko je još on pečačenja, po svim testovima dere u gamingu pogotovo kada se kloka, bez obzira na konkurenciju.

The Exiled 25.05.2019. 19:39

Ma je, sve je jasno, a 7700K sam samo za primjer navel, jer vidi kaj se događa kad se sve te zakrpe nabacaju na hardver koji uopće nije za baciti. Izuzev kompletno nove arhitekture, nemaju baš puno manevarskog prostora.

Na stranu isključivo igranje, već kad se pogleda kompletna slika - igre + općenito svakodnevno korištenje računala u ostalim aplikacijama i rezultati su nažalost poražavajući.

The Exiled 13.11.2019. 11:48

Citiraj:

New speculative vulnerability called ZombieLoad 2, or TSX Asynchronous Abort, has been disclosed today that targets the Transactional Synchronization Extensions (TSX) feature in Intel processors. Using this vulnerability, local attackers or malware can steal sensitive data from the operating system kernel or other processes. Performance in modern CPUs is increased through speculative execution, a feature that runs instructions in advance of knowing if they are needed or not. If they are required, the task completes faster, otherwise the data is discarded. Attacks that target this feature are called speculative execution side-channel attacks. In May 2019, new speculative execution attacks called RIDL, Fallout, and ZombieLoad were disclosed that could allow a malicious program to steal sensitive data from memory locations that normally they could not access. While microcodes and software-based protections were released to mitigate these older vulnerabilities, it was disclosed today that a new version of the ZombieLoad attacks can bypass current defenses and even affect processors in the Intel Cascade Lake CPU family.
Citiraj:

Researchers discovered two new vulnerabilities known as TPM-FAIL in Intel firmware-based TPM (fTPM) and STMicroelectronics' TPM chips that could be used by hackers to steal their targets' cryptographic keys. TPM (short for Trusted Platform Module) is a chip used as a root of trust for a device's OS that can store highly sensitive data such as security keys, protecting them from malicious tools such as implanted rootkits or malware dropped by a threat actor. TPMs can also be firmware-based solutions (fTPM) that run on separate 32-bit microcontrollers inside a CPU, as is the case of Intel processors starting with the Haswell generation (2013). The two vulnerabilities allow hackers to circumvent this security shield and steal the data stored within a TPM. Once they have their hands on your signing keys, the attackers can forge digital signatures that can be used to tamper with the operating systems or to bypass authentication on the compromised machine.
Citiraj:

Intel has disclosed a whooping 77 vulnerabilities that range from processors to graphics and even ethernet controllers. 67 of these bugs have been discovered by Intel internally, while outside sources uncovered ten. Many of these vulnerabilities are minor, though some others will have a notable impact on Intel's products. More information about these vulnerabilities is available here, with the focus of this article being a specific vulnerability called "JCC Erratum". This vulnerability impact most of Intel's recently released processors, including Coffee Lake, Amber Lake, Cascade Lake, Skylake, Whiskey lake, Comet Lake and Kaby Lake. This bug relates to Intel's ICache/ Decodes Streaming buffer, though the issue can be addressed with firmware. However, Intel's mitigations document for Jump Conditional Code Erratum states that the mitigation/workaround will impact performance by 0-4% excluding outliers, which means that even higher performance downsides in specific workloads. Phoronix is the first website to benchmark Intel's processors both with an without their JCC Erratum mitigations, finding notable performance hits in some software.
Izvor: BleepingComputer, OC3D i Phoronix

medo 17.11.2019. 01:47

Ispada da su Intelovci žrtvovali sigurnost da bi imali brže procesore. Sad će softwaresko i microcode krpanje usporit procesore puno više nego što su dobili na brzini time što nisu staviti hardware checkove kao AMD.

Imam neki feeling da još nismo vidjeli sve i da će biti još toga...

kopija 17.11.2019. 10:57

Te zvijeri još uvijek nisu s whitehatovskih papira pobjegle "in the wild".
Neznam šta čekaju ti zli blackhat momci, još če ispast ko bura u čaši vode.

thunderbird 17.11.2019. 11:28

Bura ili ne, ali je u svakom slučaju pljuska intelu

Mladenxy 17.11.2019. 11:41

Definitivno pljuska ali i clickbait...nešto poput prijetnja mentorom ili supervulkanom nedjeljom poslijepodne :D

Amd_Shill 17.11.2019. 15:02

Citiraj:

Autor Mladenxy (Post 3354902)
Definitivno pljuska ali i clickbait...nešto poput prijetnja mentorom ili supervulkanom nedjeljom poslijepodne :D

Zapravo,radi se o vrlo ozbiljnom sigurnosnom propustu koji nema puno veze sa supervulkanima.

Mladenxy 17.11.2019. 15:07

Citiraj:

Autor Amd_Shill (Post 3354947)
Zapravo,radi se o vrlo ozbiljnom sigurnosnom propustu koji nema puno veze sa supervulkanima.

Konkretno što su ti propusti meni napravili?

MadBoY 17.11.2019. 15:16

Tebi nista, ali sto su i sto mogu uraditi tvojim podacima smjestenim na nekom Intel serveru? :)

Mladenxy 17.11.2019. 15:20

Ali nisu...problema imam 0. Kao što rekoh, clickbait.

Tajl3r 17.11.2019. 15:55

Zasad ih imas 0

Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk

MadBoY 17.11.2019. 16:40

Citiraj:

Autor Mladenxy (Post 3354954)
Ali nisu...problema imam 0. Kao što rekoh, clickbait.

Krpaju se propusti ali usput i padaju performanse. I nikad kraja propustima, a danas su ti svi podaci na nekom serveru, od OIB-a do bankovnog racuna.

Mladenxy 17.11.2019. 17:05

Citiraj:

Autor BsClocked (Post 3354965)
Zasad ih imas 0

Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk

Tako je. Za sada ih imam 0, u isto vrijeme ovakvih članaka je bilo na stotine. Jako zanimljivo :lol2:

The Exiled 17.11.2019. 17:11

I dobro bude, ako se ne desi neko veće sranje, jer sve ovo za kaj tvrdiš da je clickbait - Intel je potvrdil, a partneri uredno pokrpali i ugasili HT - i dalje čekaju sljedeću pizdariju, jer Intel čak i kad zna sve unaprijed - opet taji, laže i skriva.:chears: Samo zato, jer se mainstream i dalje clocka na 5.0GHz i igre se vrte na 100+ FPS-a, ne znači da su ovo bedastoće i izmišljotine s namjerom generiranja klikova.

Mladenxy 17.11.2019. 17:22

Citiraj:

Autor The Exiled (Post 3354982)
I dobro bude, ako se ne desi neko veće sranje, jer sve ovo za kaj tvrdiš da je clickbait - Intel je potvrdil, a partneri uredno pokrpali i ugasili HT - i dalje čekaju sljedeću pizdariju, jer Intel čak i kad zna sve unaprijed - opet taji, laže i skriva.:chears: Samo zato, jer se mainstream i dalje clocka na 5.0GHz i igre se vrte na 100+ FPS-a, ne znači da su ovo bedastoće i izmišljotine s namjerom generiranja klikova.

Žali Bože ako se oni koji su zaduženi za sigurnost informiraju putem internetova...baš to, clickbait. Pa valjda bi se barem netko na ovom informatičkom forumu javio ako je imao neki stvarni problem, makar i usporavanje bilo čega ako mu već netko nije ukrao podatke. Kad pitaš gdje mi to prijeti opasnost...vele tebi nigdje, možda na serveru. Sa naglaskom na možda a možda je u šumi. Kao što reče kolega, morska oluja u čaši. Za moj ukus previše pozornosti.

Edit; usporedio bi to sa onim majstorima što su uspjeli spalti jednu mbo jer je rx 480 preko pci ex slota vukla previš struje, imala spajkove...dobili svojih pet minuta slave.

The Exiled 17.11.2019. 17:36

Nemoj biti naivan, za vrijeme kad mi to čitamo na Internetima, oni koji su zaduženi za takve stvari - znaju naveliko i naširoko o čemu je riječ. Intel je godinu dana unaprijed znal za Spectre + Meltdown, pa su šutjeli, sve dok cijela priča nije završila na Internetima. Kaj se tiče toga da se nitko ne javlja, pa sigurno nema problema, a mediji seru kvake - na poslu smo zamijenili cijele serije službenih računala, jer su nakon inicijalnih (firmware + BIOS/UEFI + OS) zakrpa postali neupotrebljivi, tj. korisnici nisu htjeli čuti zbog čega je to sad odjednom usporeno. Nažalost, ne možeš uvijek odabrati da li bude se neka zakrpa primijenila ili ne, sad već dosta toga ide automatski.

Tak da Mladene, posljedica ovih Intel pizdarija itekako ima, pogotovo kad su u pitanju podatkovni centri, pružatelji kojekakvih cloud usluga, i sl. Internet ekipa koji hoćeš-nećeš moraju pokrpati sve po spisku na tisućama i tisućama servera.

Mladenxy 17.11.2019. 17:57

Radim i sam u velikoj firmi sa hrpom svega i svačega i nismo mijenjali ništa što i inače ne bi mijenjali. Barem koliko je meni poznato. Intranet nam je ogroman...naravno išle su sve nadogradnje OS-a.
Ovo kaj pišeš mi je prva takva informacija, da ste morali mijenjati cijele serija računala...od bilo koga. Nije da ti ne vjerujem, ako je tako onda moje isprike, to je onda totalna katastrofa.

Manuel Calavera 17.11.2019. 18:37

Ne znam za postojeće mašine i posljedice, ali su (i će) te afere utjecati na dosta velikih kompanija da idu na epyc kad budu mijenjali servere, koju su uz to što su sigurniji i odličnih performansi, efikasnosti i cijene, tako da im je to 4/4

Sinac 17.11.2019. 21:22

Sve navedeno odnosi se na servere i to ne u svim slučajevima tako da je stvar ipak malo prenapuhana. Time ne umanjujem veličinu sigurnosnog propusta već napominjem da nije efekt da će svi moći vidjeti sve podatke na nekom serveru.

The Exiled 17.11.2019. 21:37

To je samo ovaj zadnji, a čak i u tom slučaju, netko mora imati fizički pristup serveru da bi se sve podatkovne kockice posložile.:) Mada to na stranu, sve dosadašnje zakrpe i isključivanje HT-a itetkak imaju utjecaj na performanse, pogotovo kad je riječ o malo starijim mašinama. Linux se ionako vrti po defaultu na skoro svemu kaj na ovaj ili onaj način čini Internet infrastrukturu, a tu su stvari bojim se jako dobro dokumentirane i testirane:
Citiraj:

On Linux distributions like Ubuntu 18.10 and Clear Linux the mitigation costs were about ~18% while both RHEL 8 Beta and openSUSE 15.0 had a nearly 40% hit.
The Intel systems all saw about 16% lower performance out-of-the-box now with these default mitigations and obviously even lower if disabling Hyper Threading for maximum security.

Mladenxy 17.11.2019. 21:56

Čini se da Intelu to ni najmanje ne šteti, i dalje obaraju rekorde po zaradi.

Amd_Shill 18.11.2019. 11:36

Citiraj:

Autor Mladenxy (Post 3355138)
Čini se da Intelu to ni najmanje ne šteti, i dalje obaraju rekorde po zaradi.

Čini ti se krivo

Mladenxy 18.11.2019. 11:52

Citiraj:

Autor Amd_Shill (Post 3355276)
Čini ti se krivo

Daj mi onda objasni.

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/c...tel/net-income

Skoro 6 milijardi $ zarade u zadnjem kvartalu.

https://i.postimg.cc/KRcVgMyC/Screenshot-7.png

edit

dionice

https://i.postimg.cc/0M7krHwY/Screenshot-8.png

Amd_Shill 18.11.2019. 12:49

Citiraj:

Autor Mladenxy (Post 3355282)

Kakve veze sad to ima sa stvarnim problemom koji dokazano postoji.

Nisi pomislio da AMD jednostavno nema dovoljan kapacitet proizvodnje.

A trziste ogromno.
Ako trenutno ne mogu kupit Ferrari jer ga nema dovoljno zadovoljicu se i sa Skodom

Mladenxy 18.11.2019. 13:53

Citiraj:

Autor Amd_Shill (Post 3355302)
Kakve veze sad to ima sa stvarnim problemom koji dokazano postoji.

Nisi pomislio da AMD jednostavno nema dovoljan kapacitet proizvodnje.

A trziste ogromno.
Ako trenutno ne mogu kupit Ferrari jer ga nema dovoljno zadovoljicu se i sa Skodom

Za to si je kriv sam AMD koji je rasprodao vlastite tvornice odavno da se spasi bankrota. Sad većina profita ide u džepove TSCM-a. Ima i Intel ogromnih problema sa isporukom i manjkom kapaciteta, potražnja je veća od ponude.

Intel ima stvarne velike probleme (prozvodni proces, nepraktična arhitektura CPU u odnosu na AMD, sigurnosni propusti) ali stoji da se meni čini kako im ti problemi trenutno ne štete na financijskom planu, iz ovih ili onih razloga. Brojke govore dovoljno.

I na kraju kave to veze ima sa stvarnim problemom? Kako nema? Dok posluju fantastično problemi su u drugom planu iako se po meni pokušavaju prenaglasiti, clickbait (psi laju, karavane prolaze). Slabo se naglašava ta izvrsna Intel poslovna strana, netko bi mogao pomisliti da su pred bankrotom :lol2:

Amd_Shill 18.11.2019. 14:07

Citiraj:

Autor Mladenxy (Post 3355326)
Za to si je kriv sam AMD koji je rasprodao vlastite tvornice odavno da se spasi bankrota. Sad većina profita ide u džepove TSCM-a. Ima i Intel ogromnih problema sa isporukom i manjkom kapaciteta, potražnja je veća od ponude.

Intel ima stvarne velike probleme (prozvodni proces, nepraktična arhitektura CPU u odnosu na AMD, sigurnosni propusti) ali stoji da se meni čini kako im ti problemi trenutno ne štete na financijskom planu, iz ovih ili onih razloga. Brojke govore dovoljno.

I na kraju kave to veze ima sa stvarnim problemom? Kako nema? Dok posluju fantastično problemi su u drugom planu iako se po meni pokušavaju prenaglasiti, clickbait (psi laju, karavane prolaze). Slabo se naglašava ta izvrsna Intel poslovna strana, netko bi mogao pomisliti da su pred bankrotom :lol2:

Samo potvrdjujes sto sam rekao.

Niko nije napisao da su pred bankrotom,ali u problemu svakako jesu.

AMD je okinuo dio serverskog tržišta i imaju bolji proizvod trenutno.
Imtelov odgovor nece doc do 2022.

Mladenxy 18.11.2019. 14:15

Nisam nigdje ni napisao da AMD nema bolji proizvod niti sam imao namjeru uvlačiti AMD u raspravu. AMD ima izvrsni proizvod, ali isto tako Intelu na poslovnom planu TRENUTNO ne šteti ništa, dapače. Rasturaju unatoč 77 ili koliko sigurnosnih propusta.

doky 18.11.2019. 15:58

Nema tu neke posebne poslovne politike, nego su se uhljebili u svaki dio it-a jos od davnih dana, pogotovo oem i serveri, i to na trzistu sa samo dva igraca di je potraznja trenutno veca od proizvodnje, sta god da rade i intel i amd trenutno imat ce profita...

SlavoS 18.11.2019. 17:47

Nedirajte Mladenu u Intela, nedirajte u svetinju.....

A ono spuštanje cijena do 50% je karitativne prirode.

Blue Spirit 18.11.2019. 17:54

Švabe u ponudi nude Ryzen, Threadripper i Epyc servere , pitam se zašto :D

https://www.hetzner.de/dedicated-rootserver

https://i.imgur.com/5iGmLTE.png

Mladenxy 18.11.2019. 18:04

Citiraj:

Autor SlavoS (Post 3355393)
Nedirajte Mladenu u Intela, nedirajte u svetinju.....

A ono spuštanje cijena do 50% je karitativne prirode.

Vidim imam fana :no2drug:

Gigi1 18.11.2019. 22:10

Naštetilo je intelu jer nemaju zaradu kakvu su mogli imati...

Ostaje za vidjeti kako ce oba tabora podnijeti baražu tržišta tamo u iducih 12-18mjeseci kada fed skreše qe i coorporative buyback prestane funkcionirati, ne mogu pumpati gazilijune u tržite u nedogled

SlavoS 18.11.2019. 22:25

Citiraj:

Autor Mladenxy (Post 3355399)
Vidim imam fana :no2drug:

Ne ne, Intel ima :lol2:

The Exiled 11.12.2019. 09:36

Intel patches Plundervolt: High severity issues in Platform Update:kafa:
Citiraj:

Plundervolt is different from "Rowhammer," in that it flips bits inside the processor, before they're written to the memory, so SGX doesn't protect them. Rowhammer doesn't work with SGX-protected memory. Plundervolt requires root privileges as software that let you tweak vCore require ring-0 access. You don't need direct physical access to the target machine, as tweaking software can also be remotely run. Intel put out security advisory SA-00298 and is working with motherboard vendors and OEMs to release BIOS updates that pack a new microcode with a mititagion against this vulnerability.
Citiraj:

When SGX is enabled on a system, a privileged user may be able to mount an attack through the control of CPU voltage settings with the potential to impact the confidentiality and integrity of software assets. Intel has worked with system vendors to develop a microcode update that mitigates the issue by locking voltage to the default settings. We were able to corrupt the integrity of Intel SGX on Intel Core processors by controling the voltage when executing enclave computations.
The list of CPU models affected by Plundervolt includes:
  • Intel 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th & 10th Generation Core Processors

  • Intel Xeon Processor E3 v5 & v6

  • Intel Xeon Processor E-2100 & E-2200 Families

Izvor: Bleeping Computer

The Exiled 10.03.2020. 21:11

New LVI Intel CPU data theft vulnerability requires hardware fix
Citiraj:

The vulnerability dubbed LVI (short for Load Value Injection) and tracked as CVE-2020-0551 was discovered and reported to Intel on April 4, 2019, by researchers at the Worcester Polytechnic Institute, imec-DistriNet/KU Leuven, Graz University of Technology, University of Michigan, University of Adelaide and Data61, in no particular order. Bitdefender researchers also independently discovered one variant of attack in the LVI class (LVI-LFB) and reported it to Intel in February 2020. LVI attacks let attackers change the normal execution of programs to steal data that is normally meant to be kept private within SGX enclaves. Sensitive information that can be stolen this way includes passwords, private keys of certificates, and more. Even though the Intel Software Guard eXtensions (SGX) feature in modern Intel processors that enables apps to run within secure and isolated enclaves is not necessary to launch an LVI attack, its presence makes the attack a lot easier.

In short, LVI attacks allow injecting arbitrary data (much like Spectre attacks) within the memory loaded by a targeted application under certain conditions, making it possible for an attacker to hijack the control and data flow until the app rolls back all operations after detecting the mistake. The new vulnerability bypasses all transient-execution attack mitigations developed for Intel's processors so far, like Meltdown, Spectre, Foreshadow, ZombieLoad, RIDL, and Fallout. Also, LVI is a lot harder to mitigate than previous Meltdown-type attacks because it needs expensive software patches that could potentially make Intel SGX enclave computations between two and 19 times slower. LVI affects Intel Core-family processors from Skylake onwards with SGX support and a list with all affected CPUs is provided by Intel here. Icelake Core-family processors aren't affected by LVI, while Meltdown-resistant processors are "only potentially vulnerable to LVI-zero-data (aka loads exhibiting zero injection behavior only)."

Even though software workarounds can be implemented, the root cause behind LVI cannot be fixed with software changes which means that new CPUs from affected processor families will need to come with hardware fixes.
Izvor: BleepingComputer

The Exiled 08.03.2022. 21:57

BHI: The newest Spectre vulnerability affecting Intel & Arm CPUs:kafa:
Citiraj:

The VUSec security researchers are today -- in cooperation with Intel -- disclosing another new speculative execution vulnerability... BHI is the name and it's an offshoot from Spectre V2. BHI is short for Branch History Injection and when first discovered was coined as Spectre-BHB by the researchers. A proof-of-concept exploit exists for leaking arbitrary kernel memory on modern Intel CPUs with BHI. Arm CPUs are also affected while AMD CPUs are not believed to be affected. Roughly speaking, Intel CPUs vulnerable to Spectre Variant Two are also believed to be impacted by BHI.

Intel will be releasing software mitigations for BHI shortly -- presumably as soon as now with the embargo lifting this minute. BHI is an extensive of Spectre V2 that leverages the global history to re-introduce the exploitation of cross-privilege BTI. BHI allows exploiting systems that already have new in-hardware mitigations such as Intel eIBRS and Arm CSV2. As for whether the eBIRS and CSV2 mitigations are considered "broken", the researchers note that the mitigations work as intended but the residual attach surface is "much more significant than the vendors originally assumed." Intel has posted a list of affected CPUs confirming up through Alder Lake is indeed affected as well as Ice Lake servers.
Izvor: Phoronix


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