Nadolazeći AMD socketi, ploče i procesori

[Manuel Calavera]

Autor MadBoY

Malo sam danas ovo gledao, oba su testirana na Windows 10, samo je tu u videu drugacije cropana slika. Na PCPer ima clanak o Zen-u, i na njihovoj slici se vidi da su oba testirana na Windows 10.
Eto, carry on with hype train

Ja sam isto gledao video i ne kužim odakle im da je linux. Reko ajd. Prošlo već nekoliko dana i niti "a" o tome u "tek communityju" da se koristio linux. Likovi koji su tamo bili i snimili taj video nisu ništa takvo primjetili. Netko je očito zabrijao.

Da se razumijemo, to ne znači da taj bench nije cherry pickan i da će i u ostalim benchevima biti bolji ipc od broadwella

[ivosimec]

Ček jesam ja lud ili na tom vide-u oni prikazuju gameplay na kojem je očito da je to jakoooo ispod 60 fpsa??? lool

[Tex Willer]

Autor ivosimec

Ček jesam ja lud ili na tom vide-u oni prikazuju gameplay na kojem je očito da je to jakoooo ispod 60 fpsa??? lool

Ako se video vrti u 24fps, ne vidim kako može prikazati više fps-a

[Disco]

Autor Tex Willer

Ako se video vrti u 24fps, ne vidim kako može prikazati više fps-a

Video je u 30 FPS-a, ali zasto nisu stavili video u 60 FPS-a kad YT odavno ima tu mogucnost?
Slucajnost?
Ajd, valja se strpit jos tih mj-dva pa cemo vidit

[MadBoY]

Pogledaj stats, video je u 24 fps. Nema smisla raditi teorije zavjere oko tog, jednostavno su event snimali u 24p i takav materijal stavili na youtube.

[Manuel Calavera]

Dajte ljudi ne budite smiješni. Najbolje da zen neku igru ne može vriti preko 24/30 fps odnosno 60. Pa fx-evi ju mogu tjerati preko 60 fps. Prema gamegpu.ru 8350 ima 77 average (60 min), na 4.4ghz 85 fps (66 min), a na 4.7ghz 90 fps (70) average (testirano sa gtx 1080)

Ponavljam, pravi ljudi, od krvi i mesa, sa očima (i to koji znaju što je fps) su bili na tim prezentacijama uživo.

[Manuel Calavera]

Evo dio jednog teksta koji ima teoriju da će 8 core Zen (barem na onim prezentiranim clockovima) biti nešto iznad i5 6600K i ispod i7 6700K, nekakav cca 300$ cpu. Ovo je tip utemeljio na onome amd "orochi" slajdu

My attention, in trying to solve this mystery, turned to AMD's latest slide. The slide doesn't actually say that Summit Ridge doubled the FX-8350 performance. Instead, it says Summit Ridge doubled "Orochi's" performance.

As it turns out, Orochi and the FX-8350 aren't the same thing. You see, Orochi referred to the first Bulldozer module family of CPU's, dubbed "Zambezi"/Orochi. The FX-8350, however, was based on subsequent Piledriver modules. As Anantech said when the FX-8350 was launched (emphasis is mine):

Of course, Vishera CPUs were more performant than Orochi CPUs. But the problem doesn't end there. You see, AMD has been very keen on comparing same-frequency CPUs, and there wasn't one Orochi 8-core CPU, there were several. And what was closest to what AMD has been dubbing "Summit Ridge"? It was the FX-8100:

- It had the same base frequency (2.8 GHz) as Summit Ridge.

- It had a similar turbo frequency (3.1 Ghz full-load vs 3.2 Ghz for Summit Ridge). However, here there's doubt on whether Summit Ridge refers to a full or half-load turbo frequency. The FX-8100 half-load turbo frequency was 3.7 Ghz.

- It even had the same TDP (95W).

Thus, it's very likely that AMD's chart referred to the FX-8100 and certainly not the FX-8350. Of course, you already wonder why AMD isn't clearer about these comparisons. That's never a good sign.

This, in turn, changes the "double performance" comparison quite a lot. You see, the FX-8350 has a Cinebench R15 multi-thread score of 640. Doubling that gives us 1280, which would be close to Intel's i7 5960X's 1337. But the thing is, the FX-8100 is necessarily lower.

A Problem

There's something of a problem here. Anandtech doesn't actually carry a Cinebench R15 score for the FX-8100. It does have a score for the FX-8150, but the base clock on the FX-8150 is 3.6 Ghz (so 28.5% higher than the FX-8100), the full-load turbo frequency is 3.9 Ghz (25.8% higher than the FX-8100) and the half-load turbo frequency is 4.2 Ghz (13.5% higher than the FX-8100). The FX-8150 is a significantly faster CPU than the FX-8100, and the FX-8350 is faster still.

Comparing the FX-8350 to the FX-8150, we notice that the FX-8150 is 13.75% slower, whereas the base frequency difference alone would imply just a 10% difference. This is understandable, as the FX-8350 gained not just in frequency but also in architecture improvements.

Anyway, assuming the FX-8150 scaled linearly with frequency from the FX-8100, then the FX-8100 would have a Cinebench R15 score of around 429. That's a far cry from the 640 attained by the FX-8350 and then doubled by the media. Doubling 429 would put Summit Ridge at ~858. Now here's what this implies:

- 858 largely exceeds the 654 posted by the i5 6600K, which in my previous article based on the Ashes of the Singularity benchmark, showed up as being 33% faster. Not anymore. Part of this is expectable, the Ashes of the Singularity doesn't scale well above 8 threads, whereas Cinebench will make use of all 16 threads Summit Ridge can provide. However, it should also be noticed that on a multi-thread and Cinebench R15 basis, the FX-8350 was already competitive with the Intel i5 6600 (611 score, vs 640 for the AMD).

- The Cinebench multi-thread improvement over the FX-8350 looks to be around 34%, which is more or less in line with what the Ashes of the Singularity benchmark predicted (38%).

- This puts Summit Ridge below the Intel i7 6700K (a $350 CPU, though, vs the $177 FX-8350) on multi-thread performance. Also, it's likely that this will put Summit Ridge around the bottom of all 7th generation Kaby Lake i7s. And of course, it puts Summit Ridge significantly away from the i7 5960X. This benchmark confirms the Ashes of the Singularity benchmark, except in as much as this benchmark is better able to use all available threads. Such comparisons, however, were already valid with the FX-8350.

Conclusion

AMD's Cinebench R15 slide was misleading, and media seems to have taken the bait, leading it to believe Summit Ridge would be competitive with a high-end Intel CPU (the i7 5960X). A closer analysis shows that such isn't so.

As it stands, the Cinebench R15 benchmark remains consistent with the Ashes of the Singularity benchmark I used in my previous article, save for the fact that Cinebench better uses all available thread-processing capabilities. This, however, already happened with the FX-8350 in the past. So in Cinebench R15 the FX-8350 was already competitive with the Intel i5, yet in the marketplace it wasn't (it struggled to be competitive with the Intel i3).

The reason why it wasn't competitive with the i5 in the marketplace is obvious. While the FX-8350 was competitive in the Cinebench R15 multi-thread benchmark, it struggled horribly in the single-thread benchmark (i5 6600 at 169 versus FX-8350 at 96). This discrepancy was based on IPC (76% difference) since frequencies were similar and a 40% improvement in IPC isn't going to cure that. Moreover, a drop in frequency forced by the 8-core nature of the chip will degrade IPC gains (which are then only partially compensated by better multi-thread performance on account of SMT).

Unfortunately, everything indicates that even if Summit Ridge allowed for some narrowing of the IPC disadvantage, the reality of the marketplace won't change significantly:

- On situations needing single-thread performance, even an Intel i5 will remain more competitive than a Summit Ridge chip. The improvement in IPC does allow Summit Ridge (and presumably, the 4-core Zen chips as well) to be competitive on single-thread performance with the Intel i3.

- On situations needing multi-thread performance, an Intel i5 won't necessarily be better - but then again, it already wasn't. Yet, an Intel i7 will remain competitive versus the Summit Ridge, and an 8-core Intel chip will still trounce it (though at a significant price difference).

Being optimistic, the Zen improvement might allow for a bit better ASPs for AMD in as much as Summit Ridge will go from competing with low end i5s to competing with low end i7s in multi-threaded applications, and from not competing with i3s to competing with them in single-threaded applications.

This, however, won't change the competitive nature of the market. Going from the data we have, AMD will still be forced to use 8-core chips to compete with Intel 4-core chips. The benchmarks we have, flawed as they might be, indicate that this is the most likely outcome. The same benchmarks indicate that the multi-thread gains versus the FX-8350 should be slightly less than 40%, because the gain on IPC and SMT are then partially lost on lower frequencies.

We now have 2 different benchmarks confirming these conclusions: The Ashes of the Singularity benchmark, and the Cinebench R15 benchmark, though the Cinebench R15 reality was rather hidden.

[Brko]

Ma laži i podmetanja Intelovih petokolonaša...
Nevertheless, samo neka dođe više

[Manuel Calavera]

Šema je da znamo da ništa ne znamo

8 core Zen bi prema ovoj teoriji (stari "orrochi" slajd) mogao biti cpu ispod 2000kn, a prema onoj "comparable to i7 6900K" teoriji (zadnja blender prezentacija) čak do 7000kn. Veliki je to luft. Prva je worst case scenario (orrochi = zambezi, uzet onaj najnižeg clocka x 2), a drugi vjerojatno cherry pickano (zadnja blender prezentacija), istina je vjerojatno nešto između

[Bariarnil]

Fala Manuel

Vecernje toalet štivo za citanje ☺

[John Creasy]

jao kad uzmem neku procesorčinu na rate u linksu jer nisam iz zagreba, koji će to show biti

[Manuel Calavera]

Jel se navija za prvu teoriju? Jer ćemo si ga actually moći priuštit

[Bariarnil]

Haahhaah

[MikaHR]

"- On situations needing single-thread performance, even an Intel i5 will remain more competitive than a Summit Ridge chip. The improvement in IPC does allow Summit Ridge (and presumably, the 4-core Zen chips as well) to be competitive on single-thread performance with the Intel i3."



mani se teorija ovakvih tipova

jel to možda sa "seeking alpha" ili nekog sličnog trash sajta?

[Bariarnil]

Autor MikaHR

"- On situations needing single-thread performance, even an Intel i5 will remain more competitive than a Summit Ridge chip. The improvement in IPC does allow Summit Ridge (and presumably, the 4-core Zen chips as well) to be competitive on single-thread performance with the Intel i3."



mani se teorija ovakvih tipova

jel to možda sa "seeking alpha" ili nekog sličnog trash sajta?

Cinjenica je da IPC nece biti na nivou,pogrijesio nije.

[MikaHR]

Autor Bariarnil

Cinjenica je da IPC nece biti na nivou,pogrijesio nije.

Činjenica je da ti ne razumiješ da lik nema pojma o čemu priča.

[Bariarnil]

Autor MikaHR

Činjenica je da ti ne razumiješ da lik nema pojma o čemu priča.

Znači smatraš da smo i Manuel i ja(i valjda Brko)zasjenjeni?☺

[ivosimec]

Ja fakat ne kužim čemu toliko iščekivanja zena kad za jeftine pare cirka 1400kn imate i5 6400 koji drži apsolutno svaku igru dan danas sa grafom od soma eura.

Nitko vas ne tjera da morate kupovati i7 zadnje generacije.

Ako vam je 1400kn puno za procesor onda se manite igranja. Najbolje da čekam još 6 mjeseci i uštedim 200kn. Ako i toliko.

Da imaju toliko sjajne cpu-u već bi se oni odavno razbacivali benchevima, bez brige.

Tko još vjeruje amd-u.

[Manuel Calavera]

Autor MikaHR

"- On situations needing single-thread performance, even an Intel i5 will remain more competitive than a Summit Ridge chip. The improvement in IPC does allow Summit Ridge (and presumably, the 4-core Zen chips as well) to be competitive on single-thread performance with the Intel i3."



mani se teorija ovakvih tipova

jel to možda sa "seeking alpha" ili nekog sličnog trash sajta?

True that, glupa konstantacija. Vjerovatno ga u komentarima satiru zbog toga. Ali otprilike razumijem što je htio reći. U biti priča o clocku, on pretpostavlja da i3-ice imaju niže clockove od i5-ica i i7-ica, pa će zato "summit biti kompetitivan sa njima" a ne sa ovima. Samo malo se zajebo, to stoji za i7-ice koje imaju po 4ghz, kaby i7 će imati i do 4.5ghz, ali ako pogledamo skylake i5-ice često imaju niže clockove od i3-ica (ovisno o modelu). Yep seeking alpha, dolazi mi na mail jer sam se jednom nešto registrirao da o vegi mogu pročitati. Ima jedan pacijent, a ostali su manje više realni, samo možda 1 od 5 tekstova bude iole zanimljivo

U biti sažetak njegovog teksta je što je namirisao "duple orochi perfomanse" koje se nejasno spominju na nekom starijem amd letku, otprilike izračunao to u worst case scenariju, usporedio sa ashes leakom, vidio da su brojevi skoro identični i zaključio da je to to. Ključno je da je "otkrio" da je orochi bulldozer (zambezi), a ne piledriver tj. FX 8350 kao što su svi prenijeli u to vrijeme.

Autor Bariarnil

Cinjenica je da IPC nece biti na nivou,pogrijesio nije.

IPC će biti dobar (naravno ne na nivou skylakea, kaby lakea), možda čak i ispune 40%+ na excavatora, odnosno 55% ili koliko već napsram vishere (ili barem budu blizu tome), no to ne znači da će i singlecore performanse porasti 30-40% out of the box (zbog clocka jelte). Vidjet ćeš kad Zen izađe i kad ne bude imao 40% jače singlecore perfomanse da ljudi će kmečati po internetima jer ne znaju što ipc zapravo znači

Jedan seeking alpha pacijent je tvrdio da je ona amd prezentacija "namještena" jer se broadwell-e downclockao na 3ghz
Zamisli ti to IPC testiranje na istim clockovima

[MikaHR]

A gle, usporedi Intelove 8/10 core i 4 core proceve pa isto štanga u tom smislu ;P

[gil]

Nije mi jasna priča oko i3 IPC_a, zar nije single thread isti kod intel procesora neovisno dal je i3, i5 ili i7? Moje mišljenje je da će Zen imati bolji ipc u odnosu na ranije amd procesore samo je pitanje na kojoj će frekvenciji raditi i to će biti najvažnije u cijeloj priči.

[MikaHR]

Autor gil

Nije mi jasna priča oko i3 IPC_a, zar nije single thread isti kod intel procesora neovisno dal je i3, i5 ili i7? Moje mišljenje je da će Zen imati bolji ipc u odnosu na ranije amd procesore samo je pitanje na kojoj će frekvenciji raditi i to će biti najvažnije u cijeloj priči.

naravno da je, samo frajer nema blage o čemu priča

[Bariarnil]

Lik je na dobrom tragu.jel sve ubo?Ne,nije ni škot onaj svaki puta,ali ima potencijal.Kao što je kolega Manuel rezimirao,vjv ce biti na pola puta.

[Manuel Calavera]

Uzmite u obzir da su to likovi koji pišu tekstove za dioničare, nekad malo pojednostave ili slikovito dočaraju da ih što više može razumit ili dočarat situaciju, pa nekad ispadne fail kao ovo sa i3-icama. Pretpostavljam da je htio reći da će se sa niže clockanim intelima (njegove "i3-ice") možda moći nositi u singlecore benchevima, a da sa više clockanim intelima neće (njegove "i5-ice i i7-ice"). Samo što je izgleda smetnio (ili jednostavno ne zna) da najjeftiniji skylake i3 ima 3.6ghz base clock, a najjeftinije skylake i5-ice 2.6 i 2.7ghz. Za i7 mu stoji jer imaju najveće max clockove (ne svi naravno)

Uglavnom najbitnije je da zen kakav god bio bude dobro cjenovno pozicioniran.

[Bariarnil]

Autor Manuel Calavera

Uzmite u obzir da su to likovi koji pišu tekstove za dioničare, nekad malo pojednostave ili slikovito dočaraju da ih što više može razumit ili dočarat situaciju, pa nekad ispadne fail kao ovo sa i3-icama. Pretpostavljam da je htio reći da će se sa niže clockanim intelima (njegove "i3-ice") možda moći nositi u singlecore benchevima, a da sa više clockanim intelima neće (njegove "i5-ice i i7-ice"). Samo što je izgleda smetnio (ili jednostavno ne zna) da najjeftiniji skylake i3 ima 3.6ghz base clock, a najjeftinije skylake i5-ice 2.6 i 2.7ghz. Za i7 mu stoji jer imaju najveće max clockove (ne svi naravno)

Uglavnom najbitnije je da zen kakav god bio bude dobro cjenovno pozicioniran.

Slažem se,za razliku od 8150

[MadBoY]

Super mi je kako je lik iz jednog slajda s nekakvim grafom saznao vise nego iz live prezentacije Zen vs 6900K u Blenderu .

[Manuel Calavera]

Kao što rekoh istina je vjerojatno negdje između.

Po njegovoj računici 8 core + smt Zen ne može dobiti i7 6700K u cinebench r15 multi. To mi je malo prebizarno iako sam svjestan da je skylake vjerojatno u prednosti ipc + clock. Pa fx 8350 je fino konkurirao i7 3770K, di ovaj neće prebaciti i7 6700K sa 16 threadova.

Opet u drugu ruku nebih se ni sljepo zakačio na onaj blender, finalni clockovi su ključ svega. Znam da su tada rekli da će "ići preko 3ghz" i "usporediv tdp sa broadwell-e"

[Bariarnil]

Yup

[Manuel Calavera]

Naples inžinjerski primjerak

http://wccftech.com/amd-zen-naples-soc-benchmarks/

Možda je neki pametniji portal povukao neku IPC usporedbu s nećim postojećim

BTW onaj njihov članak sa "starshipom" na 7nm 2018/2019 je full retard, jer se ni intel neće maknit sa 10nm sigurno do 2020. god.

[Manuel Calavera]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQc30JK_Slw

http://wccftech.com/amd-bristol-ridg...esktop-launch/